Benjamin Holmes Keeps Switchback Counseling Affordable

Speaker 2 (00:00.098)

Hey, Nashvilleans, welcome to the You Matter Nashville podcast, the place where every story we share is a celebration of you, the heartbeat of our community. I'm Jason Hoover, delighted to be one half of your hosting duo. And I'm Mindy Hoover, joining you alongside Jason to bring the stories of inspiring individuals and unsung heroes making a positive impact right here in our hometown. Every episode is about passions, dreams and actions that stitch together the Middle Tennessee community. So if you're looking to get inspired by the good happening around us,

Or if you want to hear from the change makers who believe, just like us, that you matter, then hit that follow button on your favorite podcast platform. And if you are looking to make a move in the middle Tennessee area, and Dan and I are real estate professionals and would be honored to serve you with excellence. Now let's dive into another episode of You Matter Nashville.

Speaker 2 (00:51.874)

Welcome back everybody to You Matter Nashville. I'm thrilled to have you join us today for a conversation that truly underscores why mental health matters and why you matter. I'm here with my wife, Mindy, and we have a very special guest who's making a positive impact in countless lives. Today we welcome Benjamin Holmes, owner and CEO of Benjamin Holmes Counseling and Switchback Counseling Services. Benjamin has dedicated his career to helping individuals, couples, and families navigate life's toughest challenges.

those steep and unexpected turns we all face. We're going to learn about his passion for mental health, his unique therapeutic approach, and the incredible work he's doing right here in our community. Benjamin Mann, thank you so much for being with us today and taking some time out to share with our audience. Could you start us off by sharing a little bit about your own journey and maybe what first drew you to the field of counseling?

wow. It's been a while since I've been asked that question, but essentially I think I'm a lot like many other people in this profession and we call ourselves or there's a term for it called like the wounded healer. And so I grew up in a home with a severely and persistently mentally ill mother. And so then I was kind of in this role at a very young age of kind of taking care of and advising and

know, kids in that type of parentification situation end up getting labeled things like an old soul or, you know, wise beyond their years. And it's really, I know that those are meant to be kind of compliments, but that, you know, if you know kids like that, then they're probably, you know, chances are that they're in a situation that's kind of beyond their, what's fair for them. And so.

I've always felt comfortable kind of in my friend groups growing up. I was always just kind of like found myself in these like advisor or kind of counselor supportive roles. And then I kind of found myself in a career path back whenever I was much younger in ministry. And so I was a Baptist minister for many years. I started preaching back when I was 14 and I'm giving you a long story here, but

Speaker 1 (03:09.71)

Um, around age 31, I started to kind of think like, I don't really want to do this full time anymore. I'd, you know, I'd been working in churches for about a decade or so. Um, at that point, maybe more than that. And, um, I started to just kind of ask myself the questions of like, what is it that I do enjoy about this? And it was sitting with people talking with them again, counseling, um, you know, sitting through some of their most difficult.

kind of life or relational issues and just being compassionate and empathetic and supportive. And so I dropped out of seminary after one semester and decided to get a master's degree in social work. And that is kind of where I launched from. I got a master's degree in social work in 2013 and started working in the field of mental health around that time.

Wow. That's a journey. I didn't expect the preaching at 14, but that's amazing.

Yeah, no, no one should be doing that. It was more of like I was a cute kid and I was very energetic and I was very kind of like charismatic and I was also probably very theologically unsound and said probably a lot of ridiculous regrettable things about how the world works and all of my years of wisdom that I had gained up to that point. But like I said, I was cute and it was kind of a novel thing to

kind of travel around this country church circuit in Western Kentucky where I was. Oh yeah, was, it wasn't just preaching at my home church. I would do that kind of, you know, every once in a while, but I would get invited when the word got out, I'd get invited to go to these small little Baptist churches and yeah, it was. Yeah, it was a trip. So it's a trip.

Speaker 2 (04:46.946)

So you traveled.

Speaker 2 (05:01.742)

We'll preach in prodigy.

Speaker 2 (05:05.934)

So it sounds like you're the guy that everybody called late at night when they just broke up with their boyfriend, girlfriend, having some major life meltdowns as a teenager would think.

Yeah, it was kind of like that, which again, I'm not saying that that was a good position to be in, but it did, it was very validating. It kind of made me feel important and sane and needed. And so there was a lot of positive there, I guess, as well. But again, the origin of finding myself in that situation, not ideal.

You know, Jason and can both kind of, I guess, assimilate with that, kind of understand that we were both the people that all of our friends in our friends group always went to for advice or just for us to listen and say, hey, you want us to go beat them up? Not for real, but you know. But just always be in that sympathetic ear and always be in there for our friends. So I respect that. It does kind of take your energy, though, being young.

yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I know exactly what you mean. It makes you feel important and valued because they can trust you or trust in you. but yeah, like Mindy was saying, that was kind of our role as well growing up. And I wonder and probably is it just like you transitioned to helping through therapy. I transitioned eventually into coaching. love, we do real estate, but I love coaching other real estate agents and

Speaker 2 (06:45.538)

helping them build their business. it's kind of one of those things. And I know Mindy. Is a teacher. Yeah. So it does kind of transcend. Yeah.

Yeah, and that's a good segue because that's also kind of where I'm at professionally as well. You know, I've kind of transitioned from being kind of primarily clinical in delivering therapy with clients to where now what I've built with Benjamin Holmes counseling and switchback counseling is almost like a training Institute like postgraduate training process for mental health counselors who want to launch into their own business one day.

And so yeah, it's kind of a coaching environment in that regards as well.

So I'm glad you brought both of them up. For our listeners, let's go ahead and share what the differences are between the two.

Sure, yeah. So Benjamin Holmes Counseling was my clever marketing expertise back in 2020 whenever I got my license as a clinical social worker. And it was right during the pandemic, I was seeing a bunch of clients by myself virtually. Like when I say a bunch, it was too much. It was like 40 to 45 a week. And when things started to ease back up and people were...

Speaker 1 (08:05.998)

kind of re-emerging back in the spring of 2021, I started reaching out to some other pre-licensed people that I thought would be fun to work with and I could trust. And so that's kind of how I started Benjamin Holmes Counseling was as a way to provide a vocational setting for mental health professionals to build and maintain careers according to their values and to support them and to give them training and supervision and all of the above.

And then in December of 23, I think it was, yeah, December of 2023, one of my therapists was approaching her licensure and she was about to be able to sit for her LCSW exam. And she was talking about how she might need to leave at some point to go and work for a nonprofit to start working on getting her student loans forgiven. And I said,

Hold that thought, give me a little bit. And by January 3rd, I had submitted all the documentation to the IRS for a 501c3 nonprofit called Switchback Counseling Services. And it's essentially a mirror company. We follow the exact same mission and values of Benjamin Holmes Counseling. But at that nonprofit, we operate with a sliding scale policy. We are able to, I've had

Two therapists apply for their student loan forgiveness. One, I think one of the two, I don't know, I haven't heard back from the second one, but the first one who applied, she sent me the notice from her student loan servicer of six figures getting erased and forgiven. so that, again, yeah, it's amazing. so, yeah, so we have the for-profit side, which has also

given away over the last three four years, probably three to $400,000 in free or reduced rate services to the community. And then we have the nonprofit side that we try to push as much of that work into the nonprofit side as far as free and reduced rate now.

Speaker 2 (10:20.3)

That's amazing. That's a lot. That is a lot.

Well, and the way that I'm calculating that is like, let's say just, you know, pull a number out of the air. our private pay rate is $120 for every client that we see under that, I figured it all up right before I started Switchback. It had been up to that point about $300,000 of sessions that were, you know, the difference between whatever we did charge the client versus what we would have charged a full, you know, paying client. And yeah, over the

course of three or four years that adds up.

Right. mean, and that's invaluable because a lot of people who don't know who have not gone and tried to find services for themselves. mean, counseling sessions can be 150, $175 sometimes and

270 was the highest of the therapists that I was reaching out to for my own therapy that didn't take insurance and

Speaker 2 (11:16.718)

Yeah, and exactly. They don't take insurance. And so then you're like, how do I do that? I'm supposed to go once a week or once every two weeks. It's like literally just the rich can get counseling. Yeah. Yeah, it's insane. And so, you know, just having that sliding scale, you know, just really brings it to an even playing field for everyone. I mean, and even with insurance, you're still paying a hundred dollar copay for most insurance policies now. So I mean,

mortgage.

Speaker 1 (11:42.35)

I wouldn't say that. And I don't know your experience, but most of our insurance clients pay much less than that. Because our contractor rate with insurances are averaged to be about $110 if you were to average all of the insurance policies that we're in contract with. when you do have insurance, it's great once you've either met your deductible or you don't have a deductible and you're paying that 20, 30, $50 copay.

you know, around the first of the year when everybody's deductibles reset. And if you have, you know, Blue Cross, you're paying 135 or $136 per session. Again, it gets pricey. And so we do our best to understand that. And so it's been a real tricky balance that I don't claim to have figured out entirely to pay our therapists as close to what I, the upper end of what I can afford to pay them.

and also make mental health affordable. And so that's been some of the lessons that I've had to learn over the years of kind of how to balance that out. And so now we have kind of parameters to where every therapist can carry 10 % of their caseload at free or reduced. And so that gives them the autonomy that if I'm seeing 20 clients a week, I don't have to ask Benji or get approval. I can have two clients at free or reduced rate.

And if I need to go over that because somebody loses their job or some life circumstance happens where they lose insurance or whatever, then we have a discussion about that of like, long is that going to last? And then we see if there's any any funds somewhere within the nonprofit that we can kind of sponsor that person. But yeah, so it's just kind of a moving target on trying to figure all of that out constantly to make mental health affordable to as many people as possible.

And I do want to, I do want to call out that I know we're talking about the, the costs, but it is that's valued. I mean, that's a value or more, you 275 for what it does for how much it does help you. That's, we're not saying that, you know, therapy is not worth that at all. And more. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to make sure that, you know, our listeners understand that.

Speaker 1 (13:56.014)

Oh yeah, no, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (14:02.264)

But it does become a roadblock for a lot of people because of the cost. usually, and I mean, you're the expert here in this room, but usually I would think that they're going through these challenges. Usually a lot of it is financial. Financial challenges, yeah. And so I love that you take that into consideration.

Yeah, mean, the stresses of everyday life kind of fall under, you know, a few different categories. There's relational, there's vocational, there's physical, you of course, the emotional, mental. But then there's also that financial strain that people are experiencing. And I think most of us have felt it at some point over the last few years. And so just, you know, again, I feel in

Incredibly privileged to be in a position to do as much as I'm able to do You know and still be okay, right so But yeah, it's it gets tricky for people and I think a lot of times people think of the financial hurdles or barriers and They just kind of don't try Because if you go to psychology today and you start scrolling through therapist in your area if they don't take insurance, you know

they're listed at 150 to two, again, that upper end of $270 for a therapist. yeah, I mean, if it's twice a month, that's almost $600. So do I pay my car note or do I buy groceries or do I go to therapy? And sadly, we have to make those decisions a lot of times. And so I'm trying to do as much as I can to remove that barrier.

I love that. And you guys don't just give like traditional therapy. You guys also have other options and different types of therapies. So I'd love to hear more about those alternative therapies that you guys do.

Speaker 1 (16:07.314)

the, the, you mentioning like the different modalities of like, have two brain spotting therapists. We have, I don't know how many now, six, five or six EMDR therapists.

And the, I think, neurofeedback.

Yeah, so neural feedback is, thank you for bringing that up. That is something that we house at the nonprofit side of Switchback Counseling Services. And neural feedback is working wonders with a lot of our clients coming in who, you know, they do the talk therapy, they do the EMDR, or they are doing the CBT, they're trying to, you know, process trauma and emotions.

but they're constantly working behind the eight ball because they can't sleep at night. They're waking up at two, three o'clock that witching hour and they're just up and they're not getting into deep sleep very well. And so we're using neurofeedback as a way to help them rest and for their brain to kind of recharge and heal itself at night. And that as a supplement to some of our more traditional therapies has been.

really impactful for some of our clients. And as well as like our kids, my kid included with ADHD of doing our neurofeedback brain training with his little prefrontal cortex and getting it more organized into normal patterns has been an incredible thing even within my own household.

Speaker 2 (17:38.092)

That's amazing that you can go in and and I'm I'm guessing that this maybe is this like a machine or is this a computer program?

Yeah, we're using EEG technology. Okay. And so I can talk you through the whole process here. So we start with a brain map, which is a QEEG, a quantitative electroencephalogram. And we put the EEG cap on and the client just kind of sits in a comfortable chair still and calm. And we go through a series of reading different sites in the brain. And what the EEG is picking up is the particular comp

combination of delta, theta, alpha, and beta, and high beta waves that are present in the brain. And so then what happens is that gets compared against thousands of other EEGs that we have in our software's database. And it's compared against what would be considered as normal brain wave patterns. And so we're able to locate four of the four most dysregulated sites in a person's brain. And then again, if sleep is ever the issue or

If sleep is ever an issue, we don't even worry about trying to address ADHD or depression or anxiety until we can get that person sleeping. Because again, that sleep is so critical to our overall health. Not just our brain health, but if you feel physically tired and drained all the time, then your depression and your anxiety, trying to deal with that, you're just kind of working against the stream.

So we really start there, but let's say sleep's not an issue. Then what we do is we have certain protocols. like for ADHD, what we're trying to do is we're trying to raise beta waves in the left part of the brain, and we're trying to raise alpha waves in the right part of the brain, in the prefrontal cortex especially. And so whenever I've got my 10 year old in for a neurofeedback session, I put an EEG sensor here and an EEG sensor here right over the prefrontal cortex.

Speaker 1 (19:43.072)

And all it's doing is reading the brainwave activity, kind of like a stethoscope reads, you know, can listen to your heartbeat. So we're not putting anything in the brain. And Rudy Mack, he just sits in a, like I said, a comfortable chair, dim lights, he's got headphones on and he watches a cartoon on Netflix for 30 minutes. And our software is reading his brain in real time. And the feedback part, the neurofeedback is when his brain is producing

Beta loud enough here and alpha loud enough here. He gets positive reinforcement with his show and his the audio and the video is is on right? Okay, but when his brain fails to produce the combination of desired brainwave activity the screen will fade and the volume will fade so that's a negative reinforcement and so his brain on an unconscious level so he doesn't have to solve any problems here. He just has to keep

looking at the screen and paying attention and waiting. And his brain on an unconscious level, this is what we call neuroplasticity, it will just start to fix itself. So almost like training a dog to sit, you say sit and the dog has no idea what you're trying to get it to do. But every time you see that dog sit, you give it a click and a treat or something like that. So over time that dog starts to associate, when I sit something good happens. Well, our brain does the same thing through positive and negative reinforcement.

It's called operant conditioning. It's been around for forever. And your brain will eventually start to associate, I get to see and hear what I want to see and hear when I'm producing this combination of brain waves. And the data on this, like the American Association of Pediatrics has come out with statements on this that it is as valid of a treatment for ADHD as medications, that it is an evidence-based valid treatment for ADHD and that

unlike medicine, that when you discontinue the treatment after 40 or so sessions, which can be done in four to six months, the changes are permanent. So unlike a medication, if you stop taking that medication, you don't get the benefits of the medication anymore until you start taking that medication again. And we do know that some of these harsh stimulants, they kind of...

Speaker 1 (22:04.522)

change your kid. They will slow them down, they suppress appetite, they kind of disrupt sleep at times, especially if you don't, you know, if you take the medication a little bit later than normal because you forgot it or whatever. And so it's a safe alternative to stimulant medication for the treatment of ADHD.

Interesting. we, you know, one of our kids takes medicine to help with the focusing and it helps, but like you're saying, it does, it causes other things. Yeah. So we've always tried to like, try to keep him just a little under medicated so he doesn't feel numb. And then, so he'll go a long time until he's finally like, okay, I can't, I'm getting to where every disruptive kid around me is keeping me from focusing. Like I just can't.

And I hate that. And I hate that. mean, I'm like that. He had no hope. I mean, it's. I love the fact that it makes it wires the brain without medication and without any type of surgery or anything. mean, you're literally just, you're causing the brain to do something based on the, what it's, I guess the input in my understanding that the input.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:21.854)

And based on that, it makes it change. I love that. That's amazing. And the multiple treatments that then can be permanent. That's the amazing thing.

Yeah, I mean, so there's all sorts of data in the academic literature that talks about how these changes post experiment or whatever, the follow-up, sometimes 10 years later, the impulsivity is still decreased. The focus and attention is still increased over where baseline was. then 10 years is a long time. There's a lot of maturity that happens. But yeah, lot of these research...

articles, they follow these kids, you know, for years and they, the changes stay in effect. Because it's, again, it's changing the way the brain is organized within itself instead of an outside thing coming in and temporarily putting one neurotransmitter in a part of the brain that the brain doesn't really know how to get there on its own.

This teaches the brain how to get there on its own.

And are there other places that have this in this area?

Speaker 1 (24:37.198)

Yeah, I I think there's a place down in Brentwood, there's a place in Donaldson. As a fault, as a business owner, I don't pay attention to what anybody else is doing. I know that they exist. I know that they've got their own marketing strategies. And again, I've received criticism from plenty of people as a business owner for not paying attention to my competitors. But I just find that

I

Speaker 1 (25:05.964)

I can get a lot more done if I just stay in my lane and not worry about what everybody else is doing. So I can't tell you a whole lot about what these other companies do or their pricing structures or which machines they're using. yeah, anywhere you can find neural feedback, it would be a good thing to look at for depression, anxiety, ADHD, sleep disorders, things like that.

So, being a teacher and also a lot of my friends have had issues with their kids becoming autistic and does this neurofeedback, does it help those situations? Have you seen improvements in behavior of kids who've gone through this?

Love that you brought that up. you guys had you guys had a guest on your show a few weeks ago. Yes, I love Stephanie works here at Benjamin. Actually. Yeah, she's at Benjamin Holmes counseling and when I started Telling the gang the the group here that we were gonna start doing neurofeedback She was the first one who raised her hand and said I want to get trained and so Stephanie

Went to Hilton Head with us, we did the training, we got the machine, and I bought her a home kit so that she could use this at home with her boys. And so she has two boys. And Victor, the younger boy, I think he's 10 now, she started him on the SMR Up protocol, which is a protocol, again, for sleep, but also for autism spectrum disorder.

And she, think it was 40 sessions. I think she was able to do it last summer. So it was like really, she hit it hard and consistent for about three months. And some of the changes within that three month period of time were life-changing for her family. There is a video on Switchback Counseling's Instagram of her talking about this. And so if anybody wants to go to Switchback Counseling on Instagram and

Speaker 1 (27:10.262)

scroll through, she's sitting here in my office and just telling me about Victor. But most notably, the biggest change occurred is that he had never toileted independently. So they were on like an hourly schedule within their home, her and her husband, of just like yelling throughout the household of like, hey, you know, are you going to take him or hey, it's time? And after 40 sessions, you know, Victor...

Like she said one day they were just sitting there watching TV and they hear some like activity in the restroom and they kind of just look at each other and they're like, did he, did he just go by himself? And they go and check it out and sure enough, he had like, he just started going to the toilet by himself. And so he had become more verbal instead of like,

So great.

Speaker 1 (28:06.21)

having meltdowns because he can't communicate what it is that he wants or needs. He had become more expressive and communicative with them. And then another big thing for them is she's with the Children's Kindness Network and some other organizations. so she was this cow at a Nashville Sounds game, not a Chick-fil-A cow, but a different type of cow mascot. and Victor was able to sit

that.

Speaker 1 (28:35.694)

and participate and stay for the entire game without getting overwhelmed and overstimulated by the lights and the music that would go off at random times and all the different people. And she was just beyond grateful and proud of him for that progress that he had made. And the only thing that they had kind of changed because he was consistently doing ABA therapy and they were supporting him at home.

the way that they always had, but she started that neurofeedback brain training with him and hit it really hard and consistent for three months. And again, like those changes are, you know, are sticking.

you know, hopefully they are permanent. That's just, you know, I was about to say mind blowing, but I was like, no, I'm not going to do a pun on this one. But it is it's, you know, I love, you know, cause I don't know neurology, know, anywhere close to like you do, but you know, I kind of geek out on reading some of that stuff, especially at night. If it's neuroscience or astronomy, that's my geeking out.

things, if anybody, a little fun factoid. And to watch the advancements, just in the last, I'd say 10 years, the advancements of starting to understand our brain and how we can actually, like this, start fixing it without invasive type surgeries and medications. I'm excited just to see how far this will go.

Well, a book that you might really enjoy then is called A Symphony in the Brain.

Speaker 2 (30:21.038)

a symphony in the brain.

And it's just kind of like a meta analysis of the literature and the history of neurofeedback going all the way back to like, I think the 40s and 50s of this technology being used. And it was kind of like accidentally discovered as being effective at treating seizure disorders.

Hmm, okay.

Speaker 2 (30:43.72)

okay. So I love the feedback. We can stay on the feedback all day long. So what other services outside of the feedback and just the therapy, are there other types of therapy that is utilized?

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:04.246)

Yeah, and so again, we have 20 therapists on the for-profit side and seven therapists on the nonprofit side. And then we have three interns that also see clients while they're going through their internship. And so we have a very wide range of life experience and religious backgrounds and cultural backgrounds. have two Spanish speaking therapists.

And I think we're adding another one in the spring. We have an Asian therapist. have therapists that are not only LGBTQ plus affirming, but also a part of those communities, which is a valuable service these days. And then, you know, we've got kind of like your average white bread southern male therapy as well.

And so we

We need help too.

To be honest with you. And so, yeah, and again, I've been so fortunate and proud of the fact that I've been able to support, I think, about a half dozen therapists now in achieving an EMDR certification, which is a very powerful modality for treating trauma and helping people heal and move on from that. Again, we have two brain, three, two, two brain spotting therapists.

Speaker 1 (32:37.614)

We have someone with experience in applied behavioral analysis. We have a registered dietitian who works with eating disorders. And then we have myself and another therapist who come out of kind of a ministry background to kind of deal with some religious trauma, spiritual trauma, things like that. And then, you know, we've got people who offer virtual sessions only and we've got other people who are, you know,

combination. So it really is a diverse group. have one therapist is wrapping up her PhD. She wrote a thesis in marital betrayal. And so she's kind of our resident couples expert. She's also one of our attending therapists, you know, so a fully licensed person who supervises some of the others. And so yeah, I'm just really proud of the

the group that we have here and just all of the variants that makes it so rich in experience and expertise. It's quite incredible.

So, and hopefully I don't go down a rabbit hole here, of course, one thing that you shared that caught my attention was brain spotters.

Now, if you ask me too much about that, I'm happy to pay for the training. I've never been trained. so I made a transition about two and a half, three years ago. I used to be one of these guys that was like, I want to be known as like one of the best therapists in Nashville. I just want to be able to provide the highest quality. And I still do, but I'm kind of like more in a coaching.

Speaker 1 (34:25.459)

Even now, like my therapy is more like supportive coaching. don't, I'm not EMDR certified. I don't deal with a lot of complex trauma anymore because I just haven't kept up with those specialized trainings because my shift has been more of now I just want to create an environment that mental health professionals can come and work and be supportive and grow and be promoted into the type of career that they want to have.

And so that gets me way more excited than going and learning how to be a brain spotter or a brain spotting therapist. So I just kind of want to, I know a little bit about it. I know it's for trauma. I know that it's evidence-based. I know how much the trainings cost, but I don't know. I couldn't tell you and break it down for you.

For sure. So as far as the community, if I'm listening and I need help, I'm not going to be specific here, how do you know about, how do y'all come up with the, do they go down the nonprofit side or the for-profit? What's that look like?

Yeah, so we receive our referrals in a few different ways. So every single one of our therapists is listed on Psychology Today. that's kind of the, if you were to Google search therapist near me and you have your location services on, you're going to go to, it's Psychology Today is going to be at the top. They pay tons of money to be the number one, you know, search. You go there, you put in your zip code, you put in, I want to work with a male or a female. I want to work with this person.

this background or whatever, here's my insurance and go. And then it will give you a list of therapists. And so all of our therapists have their own Psychology Today profile and they get their referrals. That's one way. Another way is Benjamin Oaks Counseling, switch back and I myself also have a Psychology Today and I'm not able to take many new clients. And so I will kind of refer out within our practice and

Speaker 1 (36:42.858)

and whenever I get those and then through our website. So benjaminhomescounseling.com and switchbackcounseling.com. We have forms on there that you can fill out. It comes directly to me. here's the, I don't know if we're different in this way, because again, I don't pay attention and call up other practices and find out how they do it. But here's how we do it is clients are not assigned to therapists.

Whenever we get a client referral in through the website or a phone call or whatever, we have a conversation with that person. Or if that person has given us enough information of like, I'm dealing with eating disorder or OCD or anxiety or relationship issues, I kind of know maybe. And so what happens is, is I will send that referral to two or three therapists within our practice that I think might be good.

And those people reach out and then that client has the choice to choose the therapist that they think would work best with them. And so I have worked in, or I know of agencies that just kind of like, okay, here's your new client, you have to see this client. And so again, one of the core values of both Benjamin Holmes Counseling and Switchback is autonomy of the professional. And so if you don't.

feel like you're gonna be the best therapist for this client, well we certainly don't want you seeing that client. And so that has been a part of our culture throughout. So that's one of the things that I think we do really well is we, all of the clients that we serve are being cared for by therapists that they're a match because they chose to be a match instead of some guy behind a computer saying, here's who you're gonna work with.

I like that. know, there's I'm seeing, or maybe it's just my perception. So, know, Tommy, I'd like to get your input on this. It seems like we're being more proactive on trying to help with mental health. We're talking about mental health more now than it seems like it did pre-COVID. Is that just me or is that have you seen anything like that? Have you seen kind of the uptick on

Speaker 1 (39:00.642)

No, yeah, absolutely. I don't want to make light of anyone's experience. have family members who lost people. have clients who have family members who lost people. But for me, in starting a business in the industry or in the field that I started it in, COVID was a godsend in that regard. I started hiring people because there was such a flood of referrals coming in.

and I couldn't I mean I was seeing 45 or 46 a week and I was like well Obviously we need more people in it in the pool Yeah, and so even me seeking out a therapist at that time I had firsthand experience of emailing a dozen different therapists and never hearing back from anybody Because everybody was full. I mean we couldn't keep up and so yes, I think

Wow.

Speaker 1 (39:59.96)

for many reasons, COVID kind of cracked the lid off of kind of the need for mental health. I mean, we saw an uptick in domestic violence at that point because people were just crammed in on each other. mean, all of a sudden you lose this rhythm of being able to like get ready, go out into your workplace, you're away from your kids, away from your partner for eight to 10 hours a day, you come back and obviously-

Pressure time.

Right. And I'm not saying that that excuses the domestic violence at all. But we did see an uptick. We did see an uptick in ADHD, especially the adult ADHD movement. yeah.

Really? No outlets. were stuck behind a desk at the house probably.

And I don't, again, I am not a neurologist. I am not a psychiatrist. I don't diagnose ADHD. And so I don't know if it was just, you know, we see sometimes these phenomenons of like whenever there's more people seeking the help, then all of a sudden a diagnosis, the prevalence of a diagnosis goes up. And I think that even from my own experience of like, okay, I used to go through

Speaker 1 (41:21.314)

before COVID, I would get up, I would have a morning ritual, make coffee, have breakfast, take a shower, get dressed, get in a car, drive to work, go set it in office. And it was almost like there was this ritual that told my brain, okay, it's time to be productive. We're going and this is what we're doing. Well, if you think of like some of the classic symptoms of ADHD, which is distractibility and kind of not being able to pay attention for long periods of time,

on a task that's not necessarily enjoyable or interesting to the person. Well, that must have only been made more complex by now I'm working in an environment that, my dog is here or my cat is here and my video game console is here, my TV is here and my kitchen is just two seconds away.

Your kids are in the background.

Kids are in the background or my backyard where I like to sit and, you know, watch the birds or whatever. So like all of a sudden when we lose our kind of productivity rituals because we're showing up, some people that I know who are living in apartments, they would literally get out of bed, put a shirt on and walk three feet to their desk that was in their bedroom and log on and work. And so that activation ritual.

of like, okay, it's time to be productive. It's time to do this other thing. We just lost that. So many people lost that. so, yeah, I think that explains some of what was going on. I don't think that it invalidates a legitimate diagnosis that a person gets from a psychiatrist or somebody qualified to make those diagnoses, because I am not.

Speaker 1 (43:11.618)

But I don't think that we can just say none of what I just said was happening.

Right. Right. And then they're re-emerging too, you know, after being isolated for two years and then, Hey, go to college. Hey, go to a busy, loud work environment. mean, I think it was kind of an overload for a lot of people. So I wonder if too, the, know, being kind of locked down, um, I know me as like, I almost didn't feel as free as I'm accustomed to, you know, I could go and eat somewhere. can go and do, you know,

And fortunately for our industry, we were essential, but there was many that, know, like hairstylists, you're not essential. So you don't need to be cutting hair. mean, your whole lifestyle or life's work is just shut down for a moment.

,

Like, what do you do? I don't know how people got through those months and months and months of not being able to work. And so, yeah, mean, those types of strains definitely kind of forced a lot of people's hands into mental health treatment. And now I think, kind of like, you know, other movements that have happened, people are realizing like, this actually does help me, like you say.

Speaker 1 (44:54.944)

I have a person that I can go and talk to and unload and be vulnerable and open and raw and wounded and just fully and wholly myself and they don't judge me. They don't tell me what I should do and take kind of the autonomy away from me. They don't criticize me, right? They listen, they reflect back and they might give some advice if I ask them for it.

or they might give me some suggestions that I can try to improve on the issue that I'm presenting in that session. And then it's kind of like I've unloaded and decompressed. And so I can go back into my normal relationships and not expect or need so much from people who aren't qualified in that way. So like our friends just get to be our friends. Our spouses just get to be our spouses because I have a therapist who is my therapist.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:49.998)

Sure. Yeah, you definitely don't want your spouse being your therapist. I just got the evil eye, sorry. I'm just kidding. I love our relationship. We work together, we do this, and we do everything together. But I know that it's not the norm out there. So we're fortunate.

Yeah.

So you shared one story about with Stephanie. Do you have any others? I know you can't share names or anything, but is there anything else that maybe has stood out to you since you started this journey in 2020 that has really stood out and like, that's gonna stay in me forever.

Yeah, I I have those you know I have those clients that came in that you know rarely does anybody ever come into therapy on a winning streak and so like you know in some way their life is in shambles they're going through a divorce or they're you know there's there's 2 or 3 clients over the last. Yeah, 10 to 12 years that I can think back on and be like you know that that really made a difference you know and usually if it's.

Somebody like I can think of one client is one of my earliest clients back when I was first getting started and you know, we started out in couples counseling Her husband just kind of wasn't really on board with doing any of the work that was necessary They ended up going into a divorce process She stayed with me as an individual therapist and I you know, I didn't know anything back then really

Speaker 1 (47:32.904)

I didn't have the experience that I have now is as you being in my 40's and being married all these years but really what made the difference was like again I was that place where she came and she could just be raw and real and it's like you know wasn't talking to her mom who was kind of too emotionally close to it wasn't talking to her friends who were like too emotionally close and biased and you know totally on her side and would never call you know like anyway so.

kind of being that objective person who provides that unconditional positive regard. Like can think of her. She wrote a very sweet card just thanking me, you know, whenever we terminated treatment after months and months and There's a, you know, there's a client that I have now who I've been seeing for three years and we're not working on anything in particular, but it's just kind of like, I'm again, I'm that guy that she.

sees every couple of weeks or once a month and I'm just like a part of her recipe of a healthy life. I like that. Yeah, it's just like going to the gym and getting protein and drinking enough water and getting enough sleep. She considers me to just be a part of her recipe for health and wellness. And so, yeah, there's certain...

there's couples that I've been seeing and like I've just seen them come from the brink and they would come in and sit and like argue on my sofa for 20, 30 minutes. and, and now like when we come in, you know, we see them once a month and they come in and they might have something to talk about, but it's just almost like a booster shot of just kind of like, well, do you remember this concept? And you know, and it's, I see these people out and they come and they say hello and

and it's friendly and it's positive and yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:32.846)

It must be just fulfilling knowing that you're helping so many people.

Yes. And it kind of boggles my mind sometimes of like, we see over, I think we've been averaging here lately, right around 400 clients a week. Wow. Between both Benjamin Holmes Counseling and Switchback. And so the reach is also kind of, I don't know, I'm not one of these guys that thinks that you can't be proud of yourself, you know? Like, I'm proud of that.

Yes.

I'm proud of the impact that we're hopefully making on Nashville and on Tennessee, you know, even more broadly, because we do see people all over the state virtually. So, yeah.

I mean, and that's why you do what you do. absolutely. Every day. So what gets you out of bed? Well, is there anything that you guys have coming up, anything new in the pipeline that you guys are hoping to implement over the next year?

Speaker 1 (50:39.486)

really the focus is on, like most of my time right now is trying to figure out how to get neural feedback to this community. and so, you know, I'm, I'm doing a lot of trial and error, marketing wise via social media and, and trying to go out and meet with pediatricians and different types of, other providers who might be referral sources. But.

That has been a focus and then, you know, all things continuing to go as well as they have gone. The plan is to explore opening another office in Summer County, so around Hendersonville or Goodlandsville, just to make more services accessible to those folks up there. And then I don't know, I don't know what's going to be next.

as far as expansion or new services go.

Well, I say the neurofeedback, if anybody is listening, that is definitely something I think will expand. Yes. I'm overjoyed that that is a thing now. I'm sure it may have been here for a while, but I think that is the wave of helping people. I love that it's starting to be talked about and especially

you know, for males, because males, it's one of the hardest things to say, hey, I'm not well. It's always, know, oh, you know, it's fine. We'll take care. You know, oh, I'm good. I'll get through it. Yeah. It's all right. But in the back, you're, you're devastated and you just don't want anybody to know. So I like the fact that that is happening, that we're able to talk about it. It's not seen as something that makes that you're weak because you struggle.

Speaker 2 (52:43.566)

we all struggle with something and sometimes it's more than one thing. So, you know, before we wrap up, if somebody's listening and they're, they say, well, it's, you know, it's a struggle sometimes like is counseling, you know, is that for me, is therapy for me? What would you say to them?

would say, and I heard this online, but on social media, when you start going to the gym and you start lifting weights for the first time, you feel weak when it's actually making you strong. And that's kind of what therapy does. You feel vulnerable. You feel exposed, especially whenever you get in and you start being honest about your emotional, you know,

struggles and but When you get in and you're matched with the right person who kind of matches your vibe You know the number one indicator of a positive outcome in therapy is not how much your therapist knows It's how well you like know and trust your therapist. Hmm And that relationship that you build in in the therapy process and so You know

we're not in a place to where you come in and it's this cold, objective, you know, person sitting behind you as you lay on a couch and talk about your mother. It's very relational. Most therapy these days is, I kind of describe it as like, if we were in any other setting, we might be sitting at a bar, having a drink, just talking about life and sharing ideas about it. And so,

Obviously we don't do that in therapy, but it kind of has that feel and I have had clients who I've seen for months or years and they've terminated therapy and they will ask like, is there any chance that we could just go out and hang and grab a bite and just keep talking? I'm like, sadly, no, but I appreciate that that's the impact that I have. I would say to those people who are skeptical,

Speaker 2 (54:55.052)

still therapy. you go.

Speaker 1 (55:01.612)

you know like

I wish that I could come up with some brilliant thing that's going to crack people open.

It's just we're moving so far away from this mentality of like everybody, like we just have to do it on our own. Like one of the things that I wish never existed was the nobody cares work harder movement that a lot of guys subscribe to. Because people do care. And you know, when we have

Depression rates as high as they are and suicide rates as high as they are especially among men the to to to put out there this This no one cares work harder. Well, that's that's what's not been working right is is assuming that no one cares No one's out there to support me. And so I have to do it all on my own I have to figure it all out on my own. I'm on an island here and it's just not true and it doesn't make you weak, know, like

And you can find a therapist that matches your style and your lifestyle. mean, I'm 43, I've been married twice now, I've got three kids, and I don't just sit in an office and read books about psychology. Like, I came straight from a jujitsu session, like a class, to come here. Like, I go out and I do stuff. And so, you know, we have personalities and we have interests that...

Speaker 1 (56:41.504)

And so there are connections that you can make. Just, I would also say, treat it almost like a dating process in the very beginning of like, maybe the first one that you sat down with is not gonna be the right connection for you. And so it's okay to go through two or three or four until you find that one that you're like, I kind of feel like I can sit here and open up and have a conversation. That's

It's not like going to a PCP to where you call up Hillsboro Medical Group and they're like, well, this is who you're going to see and you just got to take that. Go out there and kick the tires on two or three therapists, right? Like we get that. And so, yeah, those would be what I would say to people who are skeptical.

That's good. Well, I appreciate you, Benjamin.

Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate you guys having me on and inviting me. It's been wonderful. Thank you.

Love it. Well, I can't thank you enough for sharing your wisdom and compassion with us today. And just from exploring the origins of Switchback Counseling Services to learn how you guide people through life's twists and turns, it's clear your work is impacting the individuals and families in a very profound way. Yeah. And to everybody that's listening, just remember, please, that you're never, never, never alone. And reaching out for help.

Speaker 2 (58:02.53)

It's a sign of strength. It's not weakness. It's a lie that we tell ourselves that you have to do it on your own. Please, please seek out help. And if today's conversation has resonated with you, take a moment, check out Switchback Counseling Service with Benjamin or Benjamin Holmes Counseling as well. They're both fantastic resources that will help you navigate your journey. And thanks for joining us.

on the You Matter Nashville podcast until next time. Remember that you matter, your voice matters, and together we can make a positive impact on our community. And that brings us to the end of another episode of You Matter Nashville. We hope today's show has left you feeling as uplifted and inspired as we are. Remember, the spirit of Nashville lives in all of us and every small act of kindness echoes throughout the community.

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